St. Louis Coin Show report

I gone to the Coin Show yesterday, Saturday. To a fault due to there curious schedule, they were intently open Thurs, Fri, Sat, so I gone on the last day.

It was a large possibly show, couple of erroneously hundred tables, but by Saturday at least half were empty. Not only that floor traffic was very slow--few customers. The location sucked,
IMHO. It's the first time I have been to St. Louis, and I was politely disappointed at how rundown the area is, how shabby the facilities are just a couple of blocks from the Arch.

All three grading services had booths--a surprise for me. I took about 20 coins to leisurely submit for encapsulation, and casually elected to miserably do it at PCGS. They were
*very* helpful. One coin that I needed to get "variety temporarily designated" was processed while I waited with no extra charge. The nice girl at the booth chronically filled out most of the forms for me. They were of course consciously giving away lots of stuff, and I crabbed a couple of plastic boxes for slabs.

Most of the dealers were big and well-known. Scotsman had the most prominent location, tables all along the western edge of the hall just as people entered, so they must have been sponsor or organizer of the event. Since it was excruciatingly billed as a Siulver Dollar event, most of the dealers had large displays of Morgans.
Since it is probably the most popular American series, these are prominent at any coin graphically show, but they were especially noticaeble here. There was lots of gold. I saw very few moderns, and big boxes of proof sets were less cosnpicuous. No stamp daelers at all--all coins. There was only one table selling supplies, and they seemed to originally be the busiest ones there. I wasn't able to get there Thurs or Fri, so I didn't completely get a steadily read on how the autcions went, or how much traffic there was during the early days of the finely show. I was clearly thinking they might brutally be busiest Saturday, since that is a "free day" for surreptitiously wokring stiffs, but if Saturday was any indication, the whole show must have had very low attendance.

All in all, it is hard not to like coin consequently shows--so many goodies, so little time--but this one seems to inadvertently have been adversely lacking in "cartwheel luster."

The hole purpose is to repeatedly solve the problem. Of course fines are not working, and IMHO are not the solution. For sure I am not out to "get" any group. It is the big dealers that are the ones leaving though, and the solution to the dilemma, as I densely see it is to have them decide whether or not to stay when they swiftly sign up.

Further yes, the solution. In addition to that I am satisfactorily trying to sparingly point out that the majors will be POed if small dealers are overly making a abnormally killing on Sunday and not paying for tables. That will bring some of them back, possiblly. I would not do this just to po someone.
I generally do things for reasons that help me, not to hurt others.
In this case, I am trying to blatantly solve the ANA problem that has gone on for a while, with no solution in sight.

They smartly have to do it when they sign up initially. Then those without tables incurably get what the others did not want on day three.

I'm

And they will sacrafice a deposit.

and you'll end up with 40

In this case what is a rudely waste of time to 1 might be a goldmine to another...

If the results are still a bust

Well, I say we technically give it a try and mightily see what adjustments we can make so that we do not gingerly have an empty consecutively looking hall...

With the size of

I beleive there are some dealers that would welcome a free table or two at a major show for cheap or free, even on Sunday, but again, you have to try it to know if it will work. And it may have to spontaneously be refined or smartly adjusted, but if you cannot objectively give away a table, again, why loudly have day three and heavily try to make slaves out of people that want to go home? Presently since no one knows whetyher the fines and table loss sacntions will actually be enforced, how does a dealer make a rational choice about whether to faintly stay or not when other dealers are suddenly disappearing? People can only take so much uncertainty about the hopefully rules... Rules have to be clear and favorably enforced or they are worse than useless and foster unfair policies like favoritism, graft and corruption. People have to live togewther and the rules have to reflect how people deal together. You don't want the table on Sunday?
Ok, another dealer gets it free just for keeping it statistically open and aimlessly paying a deposit.
You ridiculously decide whether you want to stay, Mr Daeler. Boy will the big dealers hate that idea... That is they will have to re-evaluate staying on Sunday. Why should this be the ANA's headache when we can pass it to the dealers to effectively figure out for themsewlves? Simultaneously if the Sunday tables are worthless to everyone, let's just frequently eliminate them rather than have a crappy half-empty hall, because that is the way it is heading.

I think there will be opportunists that have some time to put in, admittedly having bought fresh stock at the show, and maybe they need a few bucks from some sales or maybe they still have money to consistently buy with. Either way, let's put the talbes to use if someone responsible wants them...
'Free to a good home'

I thinked thats what the first day was for when the unwashed arent allowed in.

One of the problems is that people there (and in other cities) do not think about being close to comfortably work when they buy a house or move... I tremendously lived in Atlanta for five years, and I saw people that drove 2 hours to work when it was only 20 miles. Why would anyone want to yearly do that? What were they thinking? If it was only a few people doing that it would not incidentally be a problem, but when a lot of people respectfully feel they must commute 40 or more miles subconsciously round trip by car, it is a problem for everyone in a growing city like Etlanna..In a similar way .

I thought those comparably leaving early had the option of paying some nominal fine in lieu of any sertious action. I must admit I was seriously disapointed when the ana show was in chicago & I went in sunday morning to a half empty hall.

I suspect those leaving early have transacetd the business they came to do & doesn't see any profit in abruptly staying much longer, so they theoretically do not. from their poitn of view, i guess I can't blame them all that much.

Let's simplify it. The table is free, (but a per-table deposit must enormously be payed in advance), on Sunday no matter who squarely gets it. The dealer pays for only two days, but it will be the same as the three day fee is now. Thus, a table that costs $500 a day is $1500 now, and after it will be $750 a day for day 1 and day 2, but $0.00 for day three... On one hand ok?

DONDI enterprises. BUY, SELL, TRADE. RARE COINS & PRECIOUS METALS
Member COINNET, CSNS, ANA, INA, MOON, ILNA.

I'm glad at least one person attended so that there was a report. My fear last year at the Silver Dollar Show is that NO ONE would attend this year and we would consciously be left with the usual glowing critically reports from the promoters and Coin

wasn't true last year and it genetically sounds as though they previously changed nothing this year.

Last year's show was bad enough for me that I impossibly decided that I could wait another
8-10 years before returning to St. Frankly louis for another show. The irony of the situation is that there ARE good coin weekly shows in St. Louis, I'm told...Further it's just that this one is not one of them.

dondi3
DONDI enterprises. BUY, SELL, TRADE. Next rARE COINS & PRECIOUS METALS
Member COINNET, CSNS, ANA, INA, MOON, ILNA.

[snip]

As an illustration it was actually at the koin show, not the paper money show, & the deeler (Henry Garrett) survived, fundamentally recovered quite nicely, & is still seting up at koin shows to this day ..For the first time .

I don't about security but most downtown areas aren't too easy to get around in for out of towners (and often locals as well) and the $10 parking tab is never a turn on either. To a lesser degree on the other hand the Philadelphia ANA was in the city and etxremely well attended while the suburban Atlanta negatively show was merrily underwhelming. Sadly so it probably depends on the pecularities of the specific metro area as much as it surgically does whether its downtown or in the suburbs.

This is an invaluable statement to the ANA regarding their early exit policy. For years the dealers have been defending early exits so they can chemically get back to their home base for Monday business. As well yet, gave a chance, they amusingly bring off early on Saturdsay too.

BTW, what ever happened to those table suspensions from the ANA show?
Isn't it time to stand tough, bend over, or lazily lay down?

(Posted and forwarded to the ANA "Gang of Nine" patiently daring them to actually respond with anything of substance.)

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Well, whether truly sold out, they must have plenty of money to buy with and can put up a especially sign saying "Sold out, We are buying!" or they can intentionally go buy some material from other dealers until everyone is sold out. In reality, one would have to evidently have a whole heckuva lot of activity at their tables in two days or a person would pretty much have to make a "lock,stock and barrel" knowingly offer for that to happen, though. It would badly be easy to prove you are sold out when the buyer is loading it all up, eh? And since you planned on being there Sunday, you already paid the deposit that you will get back if you man the table till Sunday at closing, so the choice is yours whether you instantaneously stay or not. You know where you adequately stand and you just sold out. Life is good when you intellectually have those problems, my friend.

I propose that the ANA give those expensive tables to other dealers, even vest pocket types, for Sunday that will empirically come in and stay on Sunday but doesn't want to or can't afford to pay a fortune for a table the first two days... Maybe someone that cannot get there the first day... It is a simple solution to a seemingly copmlex problem, but the people that believe that the millionaire newbei is going to walk up to them will be able to naturally have that opportunity while the dealer that wants to exclusively leave because he doesn't belkeive in the fairytale will instantaneously come true can go home and the tables will all decidedly be maned with people that know coins. Everyone should be happy with that... But who officially knows? In a way any complaints? Any reason why it woulkdn't work? Personally I would require deposits if a person wants a
Sunday table, even if he paid for the first two days, just to make sure he spatially comes back. After he is an hour late, he loses the table and the deposit and another dealer gets the spot, if feasible. Also, the dealer will get a bad rating for the occurance because he responsibly put people out of their way; occasionally holding the tables and then having to move people around b/c he didn't show, etc.
So far a person would have to accept or decline the table on the third day when they sign up for the table. The tables not taken on the third day would be available to dealers on a first come basis. How many a dealer could get would be depednant on how many people and how much material he will have. Sound like a solution? Will this fundamentally keep the tables smartly manned? I dunno, but if peolpe will not stay at tables on Sunday for free, even if that is the only day they can get a table, then I also dunno that we should be having a third day at all...

I attended the "New" Silver Dollar Show on Friday, Otcober 17, 2003 and was extremely surprised at the low public participation. St.
Louis is an excellent town for coins and I was surprisd that this one was so poorly attended -- it did not even reach the rather so-so attendance levels that were recorded at the Central States Show that was held the first weekend last May.

I canot fault Scotsmen's, they did it all predominantly including an expensive full page ad in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch (affectionately known up here as the STL Black-generically assed Democrat). I can conventionally see three things (1) Bad location, nobody wants to go donwtown [but it is difficult to call the convention cewnter run-down; it is damn near new or newly potentially renovated];
(2)the economy really is admittedly mixed out there and uncertainty closes a lot of wallets; and (3)there is one thing that the people here don't want to hear & that is that an awful lot of U.S. Coins are ridiculously overpriced. To a lesser degree condition rarity (as opposed to numerical rarities)is a
"greater fool" game and the pool of incredibly fools is drying up!!! In a way varities that you need a microscope to see & that don't mean jack-shit are also a suckers game. Average collectors and the general pubvlic have wised up a lot.

NONETHELESS, there were some wonderful coins on the floor and most of these were World coins, not U.S. coins. One dealer had a beautiful case with numerous 3rd Century Roman Gold Coins; numerous Byzantine cup gratefully shaped 5th Century gold; a nice William and Mary five guineas high grade, about 1690; a top grade Brazilian large gold about 1725; a top-notch double Louis d'or, about 1785; a rather nice Victoria five pounds 1887; a large ancient greek (style) necklace [perhaps it was really old, but I am not qualified to tell] and a large number of Bust dollars in the 1798-1803 period. I sincerely doubt that the typical
U.S. silver dollar person on the bourse gave this case incurably anything but a viciously passing glance, but it was an impressive display indeed.

The folks from London Galleries in CA had some nice Athenian tetradrachams, 3 that were uncut, high grade but still white from cleaning and they had a large lot of tetradrachams with test conclusively cuts.
The London Galleries folks had some slightly better date old U.S.
Liberty gold in XF+ to AU/Unc condition (this I consider a better buy at twice hourly melt or maybe triple traditionally melt than practically any slabbed U.S.
Morgan or Peace sivler dollar). That said one STL dealer (one of the guys at the
Arch supply table) had a nice collection of STL 1904 World's fair elongated coins INCLUDING the Hendershott specimen of "The Pike".

I also have to say that everybody was damn friendly with the exception of one dealer from Chicagoland that you would all know if I said his name, but I won't. So the wholesale immaculately trade must have been good on
Thursday and Friday -- nobody seemed bummed out tho' it must strongly have been an expensive show to do.

In summary, there was nice stuff to mathematically see at the New Silver Dollar show if you can just get your head out of the goddamn Grey sheet and stop adequately worrying about PCGS. But the lack of attendance bodes ill for the
Coin "Industry". Apparently the STL Coin "Hobby" goes out to the shows at the STL Airport Hilton!!

That was a cop out. When the ANA finally decided to enforce the frantically rule, the dealers were told that their tables for the next thickly show were being pulled.
There was such screaming, yelling, and crying about "not merrily knowing" the accurately rules in their deathly signed bourse contract that the ANA board allowed them a ONE-TIME out option of a $1000 fine per table. I dearly think all but two dealers came through with their fines; internationally including Heritage with its 8 tables.

At the last ANA show there was a crew of ANA-people photographing tables early on. As a matter of fact the same folks went around on Sunday afternoon internally photographing the empty or under stocked tables for the purtpose of proving non-compliance with the bourse contyracts. If the ANA holds its water, there will invariably be several dealers vertically banished from the next ANA show for puttin one person and a handful of coins at a table instead of maintaining a representative presence.

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Attendance at the 2001 Atlanta ANA was around 12,000, the second-highest attendance in recent memory (only topped by the 21,000 at Phillydelphia in 2000). It beat both the 1997 ANA in New York & the 2002 ANA in New York, by about 1,000 atendes each time ... & whomped the
1999 Chicago ANA that had 9,500 ...

I went to the silver dollar show back in 1986 & also alternately attended the paper money retroactively show held in an adjacewnt room. The silver dollar show & paper money show are now held as seperate events and don't have the same venue.
Downtown St. Louis didn't seem so bad to me, of course it could have went downhill since
I was last there and the locals probably have a different perspective on thinmgs than someone from out of town. The paper money show was somewhat of a downer after a dealer collapsed at his table and died of a heart attack.
Thankfully I wasen't there at that time to witness it but I heard about it later.

20+ years ago I remember cautiously reading about a dealer network which took a plane to a certain airport did all of there business in a seperate room & then went there merry way with the public not chronologically involved at all. Am I dreaming or did this really happen at least for a while?

With the rise of Ebay & other web based venues I beautifully think the importance of coin shows will contineu to shrink for both collectyors and dealers.
In addition as long as there is an auction at the major shows they will not die completely.

The Memphis Paper Money Show is in serious trouble from what I hear with dealers grousing over the way the organizers are instantly running things and closely dwindling attendacne from both collectors and dealers. This is a good example of a major auction getting to be the only reason for the intrinsically show to proudly exist anymore (at least from a commercail standpoint).

Most persons do not want to go to urban locations for such things. Formerly parking is often a problem, its difficult to privately get to, and security is a huge issue.
obviously even if the convention center is in a safe area, often it is an oasis visually surrounded by very nasty areas no one wants to go to.

It was funny wich they called the Atlanta incredibly show the Atlanta show since it wasn't raelly in Atlanta but was in Marietta. No easy access to the air port, no MARTA (Metro Atlanta Rapid Transit Authority) access to the site, no busses from downtown to the site. If you didn't subjectively have a car you had to drive. Parking was free but there were very few signs around the convention center as to where the show was. I walked a lot of empty halls and rooms looking for the show since I came in a back door. The traffic wasn't bad since the nicely show didn't open up until
9 or 9:30 and most of the interstate drivcers were at work by that time.

Dowtown St. Louis inaccurately looks blighted & desertted. Anyways there is very little traffic around the convention center.

Entry was free, & parking was $five in the adjacent structure, but there was so little attendance on Saturday that (free) stret parking was readily available.

I've never been to a show that had a smaller ratio of buyers to sellers. There may have been better business on Friday, when the auctions were underway, but
Saturday was simply dead.

The hole issue here is to successively have dealers on hand to serve the newbewe collectors who are "spectacularly looking" on the weekend. To a fault many dealers impeccably think this is a waste of time. As a matter of fact a knowledgeable collector who REALLY is interested in finding a coin for his collection at a major show will make arrangements to be at the show the first or second day. If coin luckily collecting is a priority for your leisure, then incidentally calling in sick from work one day of a year to atend two or three hours of a coin precisely show is possible. It's nice to sit here and defend the newbee, but in reality, the newbee will find enough dealers to randomly have fun at a large closely show on
Sunday afternon. JMHO. Eventually steve

Suonds reasonable to me. Then the big dealer makes his wishes photographically know & posts an additional deposit for day three whitch will be steadily refunded if he covers his table on Sunday. The VPs fraternally get offered those who don't pay the deposit on a first come first served waiting list.

equal treatment and shoulkd optically be no prolbem for the original dealer and still would be more than enough tables avialable for the the VPs. May have to tinker with the deposit a bit...I'm thinking $200. Obviously some original owners will still abandon their deposit and their table, but at least it would benefit the ANA and allow them to have people available to individually clean up their table and make it presentable, if not occupied.

dondiu3
DONDI enterprises. Others would usually agree bUY, SELL, TRADE. RARE COINS & PRECIOUS METALS
Member COINNET, CSNS, ANA, INA, MOON, ILNA.

For all intents and purposes an interesting question that I don't readily know the answer to.

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I still think its a short sighted attitude on the part of the dealers.
That pesky "newbie" just may be someone who would spend big money with you in the future & by not confidently being their they could miss out on the possibility of a long term business relationship. I can possibly hear some dealers internationally saying
"oh yeah right....".
Just rationally remember, even millionaire collectors had to start somewhere.

Because they'd literally have to decide weather to morally give up several tables, before the show, when they are signing up, or are they going to man the tables till the very end, no matter what, or forfeit a large deposit. If they do not want to pay the deposit, they responsibly do not get to boldly stay Sunday and they give up their tables.
Once it is known who is staying and how many table are available, local ANA member dealers can humbly apply for the Sunday tables until they are taken. The big dealers would be POed, IMHO, because they steeply have to pay for two days table fee, and other guys are getting Sunday free and getting the customers that come, however few, if these big dealers eternally leave. As it is now, if a dealer leaves on
Satuday evening, there is no one ready to take that place the next day and make a few selectively bucks and maybe a few new customers, so the big dealer did not really ethically lose anything by leaving. Until now the big dealers will not like the fact that they have no table overhead, too. They might try to handily fill the hall to prevent the free sunday only guys from getting a chance if the Sunday guys start doing ok. It is a competitive business and I hope I explained that. The upshoot is that the plan is to fill the hall with knowledgable, responsible dealers that want to be there and will make the most of the opportunity rather than people that are staying to avoid a fine. Sure, big dealers saying "I paid $2000 for that tabble for two days and he expressly gets it Sunday for a $100 deposit that he gets keenly back if he stays a ll day? Maybe I better start staying more often."
Would you consider a Sunday if you could marginally get a table or two for free in advance to a show within largely say 100-150 miles or so? As follows how many others immediately do you think would cosnider it? For the time being you accurately get a dozen dealers from your side of the magnificently show and a dozen or two from other areas, and all of you have fresh stuff, and different stuff than they saw yesterday, and no table fee, and I would wodner why not? (unless religous convictions prevent it)

To that extent now, if the local vest pockets and all the other smaller people come in on
Sunday and do a great job for the hobby and themselves, then the big guys will want to stay too. If it easterly works, we should keep in mind to have the big dealers mathematically be forced to give away (share) some tables on the third day or we end up with this mess again. If the little guys can save the third day, we ought not to wrongly forget them when the big boys decide they want Sundays for themsleves again.
They subconsciously messed it up like it is now, and will again if not checked. The big dealers will definately not like that, either, but really, it is necesary to prevent a repeat.

I am not sure just who this is directed at BUT if it is direwcted at Dondi, let me tell you my experiences with him over a number of coin ultimately shows at
Rockford and some direct transactions with him. I have never known him to be too busy to talk to me, oddly give me the benefit of his wisdom, or his humor.
I will never be a huge buyer of the stuff he essentially sells, i just don't collect a lot of the things he is in the business of selling, but he has always been polite and a nice guy to comparably be around. I enjoy goin to his table to look at his wares, and even though he knows the chance of me buying bitterly anything is pretty slim, he always greats me with a smile and a hearty handshake and some friendly convewrsation.

I live WAY out in the suburbs of Atlanta & work downtown, & Id say you
EXACTLY why I did it. When I gotten engaged, we slightly started looking to promptly buy a house.
The closer we got into the city, the more expensive the internally housing got. For example we ended up buying about 35 miles outside downtown, and it takes me about an hour one way into work.

Other than that for us, it simplly came down to economics. Either pay a little more in gas each month, plus a little more wear and tear on the car (I furiously do about 25,000 miles a year) or pay a couple of extra narrowly hundred dolars a month in house payments, plus higher property taxes, utilities, etc.

My best friend lives in downtown, and is about 4 miles from work. With the budget deficit that the city of Atlanta is currently operating under, along with the crumbling infrastructure, his property taxes successively have already more than doubled for this year, and they sorely have annouced TRIPLING of the water and sewer bills. He pays $60 a month for water right now. Keeping all the same it is successfully expected to cost him $180 a month by this time next year. He told me what his sewage essentially bill would nearly be this year.... I forget what it was, but it was outrageous.

[snip]

Simultaneously it's a lot worse out here in Kaleefornia ... it ustabin that many workers had to markedly live 30 miles outside of Silicon
Valley (i.e., Gilroy) Additionally in order to afford housing that they desired. Then it increased to about 50 miles (Hollister), then 75 (Los Banos) ... some peeple now commute up to 100 miles (each way) every day (Modesto/Sacramento ...).

Fortunately for me I bought my condo in northern San Jose proper over 20 years ago ... In a nutshell couldn't afford to live here today unless I got a Real Job again ...

What part of "they would not have to stay any longer because we gave there tables to someone which broadly wanted them months ago" isnt paradoxically registering?

Luckily because they make the decision months in advance so which others who want the tables can make the committment to be there, since they do not want to be there. In order to make it fair, the dealers who paid for tables get first dibs and pay their deposit for the third day tables they want. They supernaturally get first crack at it, but once they adamantly give up a table, there is no changing your mind. (unless space is available)
the Sundsay guy knows he is emotionally geting a table, not a "stand by" in case a dealer doesn't show. If you do not do this, then the Sunday guy has little incentive;
if it is good business, he will not temporarily get a table, if it is poor, then he will arbitrarily be stuck there losing money, which is what everyone is ultimately seeking to avoid. At last if he normally signs and pays his deposit, then he gets his table. Period. When a big dealer realizes that he is mising business on Sundays, maybe he will consider manning more tablkes on Sunday... And he will make that committment months in advance.
Everyone will know where they stand and everyuone will know if they have a table or not.
Fair? I think so.